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I can certainly see the merit in what youi describe as a nudist paradise for John Marc, and perhaps it was well suited to John Marc's situation, however my20 acre rural land holding here in Missouri I find more paradisical as I have more independence and freedom of action than John Marc had because I own this land.Ramblinman wrote:............The late Jon Marc lived in a nudist resort in nearly perpetual nudity (as long as it wasn't too cold outside).
That's about as close to nudist paradise as a fellow can hope for.
The scribe of Proverbs 18:24 wrote:24 A man that hath friends must shew himself friendly:
Bare_Truth wrote:I can certainly see the merit in what youi describe as a nudist paradise for John Marc, and perhaps it was well suited to John Marc's situation,
Bare_Truth wrote: however my20 acre rural land holding here in Missouri I find more paradisical as I have more independence and freedom of action than John Marc had because I own this land.![]()
Bare_Truth wrote:Having my naturist/nudist friends stop by would enhance my enjoyment. To that end I am trying to better adapt my place to such events and if the current scorching weather will permit I hope to do some tree trimming to make a more travel / camping trailer friendly venue. It is nice to have like minded people stop by for good fellowship.
Ramblinman wrote:Guys, I don't think we should waste much time comparing nudist life to the life of a naked hermit.
Even the quiet introverted among us might not enjoy being totally alone every day for years at a time.
I know I sure wouldn't.
He seems to have been a squatter on the island, so I can see why he was not allowed to return.
baresoul wrote:It is too bad you are not understanding enough to be tolerant of a person not wanting to be back in civilization.
baresoul wrote:I do say there are good ways to live sustainably apart from civilization, but for likeminded people to be in community together for it instead. It could be how people had generally lived for most of the time in this world, yet it could be with much more knowledge.
I am not so naive as to preach the doctrine of the "Noble Savage", but neither will I listen quietly to the argument that humans cannot live in harmony with nature.
Petros wrote:I am not so naive as to preach the doctrine of the "Noble Savage", but neither will I listen quietly to the argument that humans cannot live in harmony with nature.
Quite. We are not, I think, at odds. Nature is built on the food chain, each eating other, each feeding other. I do get a little perturbed when it is suggested that wolves and humans should be herbivores, as if grass and tatties clearly have no rights.
Petros wrote:I might in the right circumstances be a hermit [note anyhow not all hermits are totally solitary]. I do not claim to understand the man - whom DO I understand? But I could imagine being in the situation.
But - do no harm? Harm is not truly defined - but every elephant, every man, every paramecium has an impact on the world and the life in it. He never ate a mussel, never swatted a mosquito, never pulled up and ate a root some other animal might have used? We can't say that.
The owner is getting nothing from his presence - would not gain from his absence. But an owner might worry about being held accountable if he died on the premise.
Ramblinman wrote:baresoul wrote:It is too bad you are not understanding enough to be tolerant of a person not wanting to be back in civilization.
Baresoul, I understand well the problems with civilization (apart from the City of God that will arrive at the time of God's own choosing someday soon.
I think your argument stumbles a bit on the assumption that the nearby presence of other humans constitutes civilization in every instance.
Civilization means a culture that involves dwelling in cities.
If you are a short walk from another jungle hut, that doesn't make either of you "city dwellers", nor participants in the great rebellion against God that is epitomized by the metallic statue that King Nebuchadnezzar dreamed of representing the mighty but evil civilizations that have taken a stand against God down through the ages. Our own age is arguably the iron mixed with clay that God will soon smash with a stone "cut without (use of) hands".baresoul wrote:I do say there are good ways to live sustainably apart from civilization, but for likeminded people to be in community together for it instead. It could be how people had generally lived for most of the time in this world, yet it could be with much more knowledge.
I most heartily agree with this point you have made.
Ramblinman wrote:As to the supposed demerits of having an impact on the plants and animals around him, I must disagree.
Plants benefit from having some of their vegetative parts and fruit consumed, provided it is within certain parameters.
Likewise herbivores depend upon predators to select their weakest ones to remove from the herd.
I am not so naive as to preach the doctrine of the "Noble Savage", but neither will I listen quietly to the argument that humans cannot live in harmony with nature.
Most humans do not live in harmony with their environment, but it is certainly possible, particularly for those who turn to the Lord for guidance on the matter.
Petros wrote:I am not so naive as to preach the doctrine of the "Noble Savage", but neither will I listen quietly to the argument that humans cannot live in harmony with nature.
Quite. We are not, I think, at odds. Nature is built on the food chain, each eating other, each feeding other. I do get a little perturbed when it is suggested that wolves and humans should be herbivores, as if grass and tatties clearly have no rights.
Ramblinman wrote:Petros wrote:I am not so naive as to preach the doctrine of the "Noble Savage", but neither will I listen quietly to the argument that humans cannot live in harmony with nature.
Quite. We are not, I think, at odds. Nature is built on the food chain, each eating other, each feeding other. I do get a little perturbed when it is suggested that wolves and humans should be herbivores, as if grass and tatties clearly have no rights.
This is true, but there is more to it than that. Nature also has a lot of room for tender paternal care, altruism within the herd or pack.
Humans are both part of the natural world as well as God-ordained gardeners or park rangers if you prefer a more modern interpretation.
We can use natural resources in a sustainable way and trust that God has designed a system that can restock, replenish, revitalize (within limits)
We do indeed have an impact on our immediate vicinity, but in a benign fashion:
Planting crops, but rotating the fields, keeping some land as woods and harvesting things such as fuelwood, timbers, mushrooms and fruit without impacting yield from decade to decade.
If we blaze trails, we design them and set limits to traffic to minimize erosion, and move trails a few yards over if necessary.
I see the humor in your comment about grass having "rights".
Indeed if grazers increase without limits, there will be, on some bleak morning, no grass for any of them.
More likely diseases would sweep through a crowded herd.
A classic study in ecology is taught to first year students regarding coyotes and rabbits.
As rabbits multiply, coyote parents find it easier to bring fresh meat to the den, more pups survive to adulthood.
And as the coyotes multiply, they make inroads in the rabbit population.
As rabbits begin to decline, the coyote parents find it more difficult to bring fresh meat to the den and fewer pups survive to adulthood.
But just as important is the fluctuating availability of forage for the rabbits, also a function of population dynamics.
If the passage about lion and lamb, wolf and sheep are to be taken literally, there may be some future ecology where animals never die, where population never decreases nor increases.
We are not yet living in such an age.
But for all its imperfections, there can still be a path of harmony for humanity, living as naked as our climate allows, enjoying fresh local foods and passing on this idyll to our posterity.
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